Comments on: Writing Excuses Season 3 Episode 6: Dramatic Breaks

By: Howard Tayler

Howard Tayler — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:35:10 +0000

@Eliyanna: Yes, those are the cliffhangers of which we speak.

But yes, you can argue that Brandon uses cliffhangers of lesser “hang” all the time. Which is why when he wants to use a real cliffhanger it has to be a doozy for it to register.

By: onelowerlight

onelowerlight — Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:46:14 +0000

Yeah, Brandon uses cliffhangers all the time. I love it.

By: Eliyanna

Eliyanna — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:08:47 +0000

I hear what people are saying about Hero of Ages, but it seems to me that no matter when in that book he had chosen to pause for a chapter break we would have felt some tension, it’s a pretty action-filled trilogy. I’d love to hear more from the guys on this, but it seems to me that by ‘cliffhanger’ they were speaking more of the “he opened the door and the person he least expected stood before him” [cut!], or “she lunged at him with the knife” [cut!] standard.

Pivotal action point. Implied possible consequence that radically changes everything. Cut scene.

Maybe I’m wrong.

By: DarkEyedBlues

DarkEyedBlues — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 18:39:18 +0000

Almost any chapter about Spook in Hero Of Ages ends with a cliffhanger.

I’m starting to think Brandon doesn’t think of them as cliffhangers, but just as “out early.” However, because we don’t hear back about the character/situation for several chapters, they at least feel like cliffhangers.

By: CM

CM — Sun, 12 Jul 2009 04:15:56 +0000

tsk, tsk, Brandon not being clear, he should know better. Perhaps he is still in Mistborn 3 mode. A LOT of information and no direct answers unless you figure it out on your own, which you do, then in the end you think- “Oh I know what will happen!…Oh, maybe not.”

Maybe Brandon uses cliffhangers but satisfying ones. You can consider many of the short chapters in book 3 cliffhangers in a way. They most certainly leave you wondering what will happen, but they leave you feeling satisfied too, like “Wow that was amazing” or (my favorite) “I can SO see that!”

Oh scary! I just found out that my Open Office writer is at the bottom of my Program list!
When was the last time I used it? AHHH!

By: Mike Barker

Mike Barker — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:14:36 +0000

Right. Point being that we seem to have cliffhangers, revelations, hints of revelations, and various other “tense lack of resolutions.” Now, our friend Brandon indicated that he thinks he doesn’t use cliffhangers. Two questions — what does he consider a cliffhanger, and what does he use instead?

Let’s see — I have Mistborn here.
prologue — Mennis faced with spending nights in the mist.
Chapter 1 — Vin pushes Laird
chapter 2 — Kelsier yanks an Inquisitor.
Chapter 3 — Kelsier tells Vin she’s got the power
Chapter 4 — Kelsier admits his grand plan
chapter 5 — Kelsier heads into the night
chapter 6 — Vin eavesdrops
chapter 7 — Vin Steelpushes for the first time — up a wall? A reverse cliffhanger?
Just a fast scan, but most of these I would call cliffhangers — we want to know the outcome? Not physical threats (except maybe Chapter 2, where Kelsier is teasing an Inquisitor), but definitely what happens next territory?

So I’m not sure what Brandon means.

By: AlanHorne

AlanHorne — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 02:47:09 +0000

But what about cliffhangers like “I’ve got a terrible, terrible secret, but I will tell it to you…in the next chapter.” That does not necessarily imply physical harm, but it is a cliffhanger.

By: Vi

Vi — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:30:38 +0000

Great episode.

As I’ve been inspired to start writing at least something every day again, I took the writing prompt.

It’s on my LJ and has been left public for now: http://vi-hart.livejournal.com/24116.html

As for cliffhanger discussion, I think there’s a difference between a cliffhanger and a revelation. “I am your father” is a revelation. Cliffhangers are more about action than information.

By: Mike Barker

Mike Barker — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:52:45 +0000

As Jin Kang suggests, it might be worthwhile to ask Brandon how he defines cliffhangers. For example, if he restricts it to the threat of physical harm, then a chapter that ends with “I am your father, Duke” isn’t a cliffhanger. Or “I don’t want to rule the kingdom?”

By: Steven

Steven — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:53:09 +0000

Welcome back from Independence Day, gents! Very intelligent addition. ^_^

By: Jin Kang

Jin Kang — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:53:43 +0000

Perhaps Brandon meant that literally: he never leaves his characters hanging on some cliffs.

By: Mike Barker

Mike Barker — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:21:05 +0000

once more into the breech of transcript

http://mbarker.livejournal.com/117854.html

By: John Mandeville

John Mandeville — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:23:59 +0000

Brandon, please! It’s pronounced day-noo-MAHN, not day-noo-MWAN.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denouement (handy audio pronunciation).

By: John Brown

John Brown — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:05:20 +0000

Darkeyedblues,

I was surprised to hear Brandon say that myself. But I took it for granted. Can you give a few specific instances?

By: darkeyedblues

darkeyedblues — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 02:58:59 +0000

Did I hear Brandon say he doesn’t use cliffhangers?
The Mistborn trilogy and Elantris were full of them. He purposefully switches characters right when I’m most interested in what they are doing, I call that cliffhangers.

Character A just discovered something vital, time to switch to Character B to let them get in trouble but we wont see what exactly happens to them quite yet because it’s time to see what Character C is up to.

By: Dan Absalonson

Dan Absalonson — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 22:41:05 +0000

That was a great episode, but then they all are. This one was very helpful to me, however, to what I’m doing right now. I’m just about to edit my first novel, going over the manuscript scene by scene right now, and making sure the overall story works. I had the idea of ending each chapter or scene with lots of tension, but Brandon’s comment on leaving a scene with a sense of progress has cleared things up for me. I’m not writing a thriller, but an adventure story, so this makes so much more sense for me, though I know tension is always good to have wherever possible. Thanks Guys! Love the podcast, I listen back through them and take notes, because you guys drop lots of little gems of wisdom in your podcast. Keep up the good work!

By: John Brown

John Brown — Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:23:06 +0000

Boy, I loved this one. Lots of food for thought. It’s one of the great things about this business–no matter how much you learn, there always seems to be more.

By: Lindsay

Lindsay — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 22:21:05 +0000

I’ve realized listening to you guys that I do a mixture of what you do. I write a 1700-2000 word ‘chapter’ and post it to a website for other people to read and comment on and enjoy for free. Only now am I going back and editing the first volume of 50 chapters, because I plan on self-publishing it.

I do end some of my chapters with cliffhangers and torture my readers, but it’s fun, and they know I’ll be coming back with some answers. And then I end the next chapter on a happier note. I think cliffhangers happen and they’re part of life. They get our hearts racing and make us invest a little more of our time and heart in the book.

By: Drew

Drew — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:13:18 +0000

Dramatically breaking an elephant is easiest if you’re wearing power armor in a low-gravity environment. Just ask Nick.

By: AlanHorne

AlanHorne — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 21:02:23 +0000

Howard gave a cry of rage as he tore into the elephant’s backside. Clenching his teeth, he pulled until his rippling muscles pulsed against his skin. He heard a loud snap, and he knew the beast’s spine had been severed. A few more seconds and the elephant was torn in half. Howard smiled–not because he broke the elephant, but because he broke the elephant…dramatically.

Great podcast.

By: Melissa

Melissa — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:09:50 +0000

Great topic! Loved the advice. I’d be curious to see an example of Howard’s last suggestion on how to use an unusual word in consecutive scenes to provide continuity. I have trouble with reusing words because whenever I use the same word twice, for descriptions for example, someone always comments something like “you already used that word.” So it always seems to stand out in a negative way rather than a positive.

By: Eliyanna

Eliyanna — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:21:30 +0000

Interesting what you just said about short chapters, Dan. I just finished Warbreaker and it is definitely epic fantasy and there were many short(er) chapters. I definitely noticed it, but it didn’t bother me. It seemed to keep the pace really urgent.

By: jfmiller28

jfmiller28 — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:14:46 +0000

While Brandon may not do cliffhangers, Alcatraz seems to be addicted to them. Maybe someone should send him this podcast Looking forward to Alcatraz #3!

By: Dan Wells

Dan Wells — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:14:27 +0000

Jen:
There is no hard and fast rule for chapter length, but be wary of very short chapters in an epic fantasy; more than likely it will give the book a very breathless, non-epic feel. That said…

Nik:
…varying chapter length is perfectly acceptable, and a great way to shake things up and keep the story feeling fresh.

By: Nik

Nik — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:10:45 +0000

What do you guys think of uneven chapters, as in one chapter is 3 pages long, when the next one is 20?

By: Raethe

Raethe — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:06:10 +0000

time to burn to CD for my trip!

…okay, maybe that wasn’t so dramatic.

By: Raethe

Raethe — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 18:05:34 +0000

Sweet. Just in

By: Jin Kang

Jin Kang — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:56:53 +0000

Thanks for the podcasts!

And a great timing: I was just wondering about this in my short story.

I know it’s different than novels and I can’t quite use ‘chapter breaks.’

So far, my usage is more akin to ’sandwich break.’ The passages continue but I hope the readers get a sense of progress… like milestone markings.

By: Jen

Jen — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:35:09 +0000

Query: If the readers feel that they have learned something about the character, and the setting, and part of the conflict…is it okay to have short chapters? I think that the satisfaction of the reader trumps accepted parameters for chapter length, but what is considered standard for (epic) fantasy?

By: S.M.

S.M. — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:30:26 +0000

Dramatic breaks? Yessss!

By: Chaos2651

Chaos2651 — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 17:03:58 +0000

Hooray for the episode being posted!