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	<title>Comments on: Writing Excuses Season 2 Episode 16: Non-Human Races</title>
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	<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/</link>
	<description>Fifteen minutes long, because you&#039;re in a hurry, and we&#039;re not that smart.</description>
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		<title>By: Writing Excuses for NaNoWriMo &#171; work your way out</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-42413</link>
		<dc:creator>Writing Excuses for NaNoWriMo &#171; work your way out</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-42413</guid>
		<description>[...] Non-Human Races [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Non-Human Races [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Brittany</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-34567</link>
		<dc:creator>Brittany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 23:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-34567</guid>
		<description>Elves are my guilty pleasure. However, for all that people say the genre is supersaturated with them, I&#039;ve found surprisingly few books with elves in them. Those that I *have* read, I&#039;ve found to fall rather short of my expectations. Maybe the reason people ask us to &quot;kill the elves&quot; is because nobody&#039;s done them well enough.

For that matter.. it occurred to me recently that Stephenie Meyer&#039;s vampires have almost as many similarities to traditional elves as they do to traditional vampires. I can&#039;t say I feel good about them, but hey - she got them published..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elves are my guilty pleasure. However, for all that people say the genre is supersaturated with them, I&#8217;ve found surprisingly few books with elves in them. Those that I *have* read, I&#8217;ve found to fall rather short of my expectations. Maybe the reason people ask us to &#8220;kill the elves&#8221; is because nobody&#8217;s done them well enough.</p>
<p>For that matter.. it occurred to me recently that Stephenie Meyer&#8217;s vampires have almost as many similarities to traditional elves as they do to traditional vampires. I can&#8217;t say I feel good about them, but hey &#8211; she got them published..</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-32854</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:23:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-32854</guid>
		<description>I like what Isaac Asimov did with NightFall.

He could have written things like, &quot;Sjovu got into his ghunap and fergryted eighteen plajiks to the nearest gyjurk&quot;. But no one would have known what he was talking about. I believe that unless you&#039;re writing as series of books using the same alien races, one can&#039;t diverge from our own cliches and idiosyncrasys too much, lest we lose the reader. Asimov used english terms the whole way. (He explaines why in his forward).

One way of teaching the reader about the cliches and idiosyncrasys of an alien race, is to have a human character who&#039;s new to the planet. Then we learn things as he learns them. Only thats a bit too cliched for me. Maybe you guys can come up with a better way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like what Isaac Asimov did with NightFall.</p>
<p>He could have written things like, &#8220;Sjovu got into his ghunap and fergryted eighteen plajiks to the nearest gyjurk&#8221;. But no one would have known what he was talking about. I believe that unless you&#8217;re writing as series of books using the same alien races, one can&#8217;t diverge from our own cliches and idiosyncrasys too much, lest we lose the reader. Asimov used english terms the whole way. (He explaines why in his forward).</p>
<p>One way of teaching the reader about the cliches and idiosyncrasys of an alien race, is to have a human character who&#8217;s new to the planet. Then we learn things as he learns them. Only thats a bit too cliched for me. Maybe you guys can come up with a better way.</p>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31522</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31522</guid>
		<description>I agree with John Brown&#039;s post all the way at the top although sometimes they need to be more human. You need to keep a mystic about your non human races and you need to also keep something human there. You also want to try and keep parts realistic I would say. Like with the Elves in Lord of the Rings, they are like the perfect race but they are too perfect. They are in a way perfect humans. 

In the book I am working on I have this race I made up that is very much like humans but only what humans know about them is revealed. They are not at all what they seem or what the human characters think of them but you only hear about them and see them from a human perspective. Then there is another race which has only one character of and you learn next to nothing about this race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with John Brown&#8217;s post all the way at the top although sometimes they need to be more human. You need to keep a mystic about your non human races and you need to also keep something human there. You also want to try and keep parts realistic I would say. Like with the Elves in Lord of the Rings, they are like the perfect race but they are too perfect. They are in a way perfect humans. </p>
<p>In the book I am working on I have this race I made up that is very much like humans but only what humans know about them is revealed. They are not at all what they seem or what the human characters think of them but you only hear about them and see them from a human perspective. Then there is another race which has only one character of and you learn next to nothing about this race.</p>
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		<title>By: Daemonworks</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31458</link>
		<dc:creator>Daemonworks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Feb 2009 06:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31458</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s sort of funny to hear elves and dwarves described as &quot;tolkein races&quot; when they were basicly ripped out of norse mythology. And I tend to think there&#039;s move influence from D&amp;D than tolkein these days, for all that D&amp;D was originally essentially an off-market tolkein game.

Actually, my biggest complaint regarding non-human races is that, almost without exception, they aren&#039;t.  Non-human that is. All humans belong to one species, and cultural differances along often make it so that we don&#039;t understand what another person is thinking when they do something. However, under the cultural (software) differances, we&#039;ve mostly got the same drives and motivations, thanks to millions of years of evolution and or the divine beings of choice (hardware). Non-humans aren&#039;t just running differant software - they are also operating on differant hardware.

You talked a lot about startrek aliens, but sort of missed the fact that virtually all star trek aliens are essentially indistinguishable from humans if you close your eyes. They are each just humans with one personality trait at a stronger than normal level - for a fairly typcial middle class american.  

CJCherryh&#039;s Atevi are a good example of this handled right. The Atevi are very similar to humans psychologically... close enough to make them mostly understandable, to make them characters you can care about. But there&#039;s that one giant, glaring differance that resulted in a war, and a complete legal embargo on any sort of inter-racial contact except through the office of a single very highly trained human interpreter. And it&#039;s not something like religious beliefs... it&#039;s fundamental emotional drives of the two races.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s sort of funny to hear elves and dwarves described as &#8220;tolkein races&#8221; when they were basicly ripped out of norse mythology. And I tend to think there&#8217;s move influence from D&amp;D than tolkein these days, for all that D&amp;D was originally essentially an off-market tolkein game.</p>
<p>Actually, my biggest complaint regarding non-human races is that, almost without exception, they aren&#8217;t.  Non-human that is. All humans belong to one species, and cultural differances along often make it so that we don&#8217;t understand what another person is thinking when they do something. However, under the cultural (software) differances, we&#8217;ve mostly got the same drives and motivations, thanks to millions of years of evolution and or the divine beings of choice (hardware). Non-humans aren&#8217;t just running differant software &#8211; they are also operating on differant hardware.</p>
<p>You talked a lot about startrek aliens, but sort of missed the fact that virtually all star trek aliens are essentially indistinguishable from humans if you close your eyes. They are each just humans with one personality trait at a stronger than normal level &#8211; for a fairly typcial middle class american.  </p>
<p>CJCherryh&#8217;s Atevi are a good example of this handled right. The Atevi are very similar to humans psychologically&#8230; close enough to make them mostly understandable, to make them characters you can care about. But there&#8217;s that one giant, glaring differance that resulted in a war, and a complete legal embargo on any sort of inter-racial contact except through the office of a single very highly trained human interpreter. And it&#8217;s not something like religious beliefs&#8230; it&#8217;s fundamental emotional drives of the two races.</p>
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		<title>By: LRK</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31422</link>
		<dc:creator>LRK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 21:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31422</guid>
		<description>One of the (many - yes, I adore it, so my opinion is highly subjective!) things I love about Babylon 5 is the aliens. They have general characteristics as Narn, Centauri or Mimbari but are individuals with their own thoughts, goals, agendas... (also they&#039;re not dressed all alike in various pyjamas!  :) )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the (many &#8211; yes, I adore it, so my opinion is highly subjective!) things I love about Babylon 5 is the aliens. They have general characteristics as Narn, Centauri or Mimbari but are individuals with their own thoughts, goals, agendas&#8230; (also they&#8217;re not dressed all alike in various pyjamas!  <img src='http://www.writingexcuses.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Ahlstrom</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31372</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Ahlstrom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 06:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31372</guid>
		<description>Karen was just telling me about how she listened to this podcast and heard Brandon&#039;s comment &quot;My books are marked pervasively by a lack of non-human races,&quot; going on about it for like a minute and a half, and she said to me, &quot;I haven&#039;t read most of Brandon&#039;s unpublished books, but all his published books have non-human races in them!&quot; Several of them as viewpoint characters!

Maybe Brandon just thinks of even his non-human characters as human? ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen was just telling me about how she listened to this podcast and heard Brandon&#8217;s comment &#8220;My books are marked pervasively by a lack of non-human races,&#8221; going on about it for like a minute and a half, and she said to me, &#8220;I haven&#8217;t read most of Brandon&#8217;s unpublished books, but all his published books have non-human races in them!&#8221; Several of them as viewpoint characters!</p>
<p>Maybe Brandon just thinks of even his non-human characters as human? <img src='http://www.writingexcuses.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Eliyanna</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31280</link>
		<dc:creator>Eliyanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:21:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31280</guid>
		<description>Back on-topic: A great science fiction book (it&#039;s actually three novelettes in one book) for non-human viewpoints in &lt;i&gt;Lilith&#039;s Brood&lt;/i&gt; by Octavia Butler. I think this is the second time I&#039;ve recommended it here (the last time I believe was in regards to gender character work). It starts off with a human view point, but then ***SPOILER*** as humans are bred with aliens, the resulting viewpoints become more and more alien, and yet very relatable. The really fun thing is watching how the point of view changes as the book progresses. She really plays well with showing you how the physiology changes the way the characters think and respond to things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Back on-topic: A great science fiction book (it&#8217;s actually three novelettes in one book) for non-human viewpoints in <i>Lilith&#8217;s Brood</i> by Octavia Butler. I think this is the second time I&#8217;ve recommended it here (the last time I believe was in regards to gender character work). It starts off with a human view point, but then ***SPOILER*** as humans are bred with aliens, the resulting viewpoints become more and more alien, and yet very relatable. The really fun thing is watching how the point of view changes as the book progresses. She really plays well with showing you how the physiology changes the way the characters think and respond to things.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Wells</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31124</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31124</guid>
		<description>Unforgiven is one of my favorite movies, in no small part because it takes its time and really deals with the impact of violence and violent lifestyles. I second Eliyanna&#039;s recommendation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unforgiven is one of my favorite movies, in no small part because it takes its time and really deals with the impact of violence and violent lifestyles. I second Eliyanna&#8217;s recommendation.</p>
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		<title>By: Ineluki</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/comment-page-1/#comment-31075</link>
		<dc:creator>Ineluki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2009/01/25/writing-excuses-season-2-episode-16-non-human-races/#comment-31075</guid>
		<description>Great podcast, there. Nothing new for me, though.
The german fantasy market is /overflowing/ with &quot;Tolkien fanfiction&quot; these years... and I hate it! That&#039;s not to say there wouldn&#039;t be able to write something good with Tolkien&#039;s races. I loved Bruenor Battlehammer &amp; his clan. Salvatore really improved the dwarfs, I might even say.

But for the most part: no more Tolkien, please. I just got started on a novel with a half-human main character. First person should help to really bind the reader to that rather unique viewpoint, I hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great podcast, there. Nothing new for me, though.<br />
The german fantasy market is /overflowing/ with &#8220;Tolkien fanfiction&#8221; these years&#8230; and I hate it! That&#8217;s not to say there wouldn&#8217;t be able to write something good with Tolkien&#8217;s races. I loved Bruenor Battlehammer &amp; his clan. Salvatore really improved the dwarfs, I might even say.</p>
<p>But for the most part: no more Tolkien, please. I just got started on a novel with a half-human main character. First person should help to really bind the reader to that rather unique viewpoint, I hope.</p>
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