Comments on: Writing Excuses Episode 35: Voice, Tone and Style

By: Mike Barker

Mike Barker — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 08:04:51 +0000

a bit late, but a summary of sorts

http://mbarker.livejournal.com/87469.html

[er - why does the duck get a trumpet? ]

By: WEKM

WEKM — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:47:45 +0000

And tell Howard it was nothing like watching sausage being made. Maybe law, but definitely not sausage.

By: WEKM

WEKM — Sat, 11 Oct 2008 05:45:01 +0000

I tried to work that line after I first wrote it but every pass just made it worse, so I just went back to the original.
I successfully pelted with bacon, adulation and money tonight. However, I seemed to hit each of them with all three.
Oh well, maybe I can keep it straight next time.

By the way, the recording of the podcasts tonight was a brilliant and joyful thing to watch. Be on the lookout for “monkey noises” in the future…

By: Raethe

Raethe — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:44:46 +0000

Of course! Income and adoring crowds are mere trivalties.

(Being an aspiring writer, of course, I HAVE to believe that. )

By: Dan Wells

Dan Wells — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 16:04:57 +0000

“Come on over and pelt Dan with bacon, Brandon with adulation, and Howard with money.”

Man, I totally got the best end of that deal.

By: Raethe

Raethe — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:52:16 +0000

Hmm. Hey, WEKM – is there a synonym for money that sounds sort of like “bacon” and “adulation”? ‘Cuz you had, okay, maybe not a rhyme, but at least some pretty catchy assonance going on there.

…

Clearly, since I am worrying about this, I am either far too tired or Dan’s book has been a bad influence on me. Darn you, John Keats! *waves fist*

By: J Riggs

J Riggs — Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:45:15 +0000

I want to take this opportunity to thank you guys for some persistently great writing advice: although I write newsletters, grants and scientific papers instead of fiction, your talking points still apply nicely to me.

That said, there are few scientific papers where said-bookisms really pop up.

And fewer still where I get to talk about evil undead bunnies or Han Solo’s relational wit.

By: WEKM

WEKM — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:06:00 +0000

Evil undead bunny master. Let’s be sure to use his full title.

Just a heads up in case anyone will be in the area and available, Friday, Oct 10th at Dragons Keep http://dragonskeep.com/dsk_cms/ is the release party for Howard’s latest book, and Dan and Brandon will be there to record a podcast. Plans are for around 5 PM right now, but you don’t want to risk it.
Come on over and pelt Dan with bacon, Brandon with adulation, and Howard with money.
Yea.

By: John Brown

John Brown — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:03:39 +0000

I submit to the wisdom of the bunny master.

By: Raethe

Raethe — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 07:33:51 +0000

I’d say John has a point, that voice and style vary with with what story you’re telling (and not just necessarily “I wrote this book first and that book second, so that book is better than this one”). Of course, that probably touches on the “character voice” element that was mentioned in the podcast as distinct from author voice. I think it’s fair to say they’re different, but I think they also bleed into one another.

The short story that I am, ahem, supposed to be working on right now (what, procrastinating? me?) is one I deliberately set out to write in a masculine voice, as the two perspective characters are males. I do the same things stylistically that I always do, but the voice is definitely different than some of my other stories. (Actually, from a technical standpoint, I don’t know what I DID do differently. Maybe I’ll rewrite a bit of it from a female perspective one day, just to experiment.)

Again, some of that difference might be that the story is told by this character rather than that character, but it’s still related to author voice – something the author is doing that makes you read the story a certain way.

Dan: I finished Blacker Darkness, which I am trying very, very hard not to think of as the Vampire Bunny book. It was loads of fun.

By: Dan Wells

Dan Wells — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 04:36:34 +0000

Because of the difference in terminology, and because I still refuse to believe that “said-bookisms” is a real term, I looked them up. Here’s Tom Swifties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Swifties) and here’s Said-bookisms (http://www.writesf.com/08_Lesson_05_Perils.html). It looks like Tow Swifties are more specifically puns, kind of a subset of Said-bookisms, which would make “Said-bookisms” the correct phrase in this instance. But because “Said-bookisms” is a really dumb name, I’m going to keep calling them Tom Swifties anyway. Because remember: no matter what John Brown says, I am always right.

By: John Brown

John Brown — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:01:29 +0000

I thought this was an interesting topic. I wrote a response but found it was going to be much too large for a comment. So I’ve blogged it and address this question: is it dangerous as a writer to try to improve your style?

As for said-bookisms: a number of writers told me to avoid them at all costs. One day, for kicks, I counted said-bookisms per page in some books I love. I found that excellent stories sported quite a number of them. What’s more, I didn’t notice them as a reader. I don’t know that they’re the devil some make them out to be.

Also, I’m reading Dan’s vampire bunny story. Enjoying it. I’m betting, however, that his serial killer novel is not written in that same style. So sometimes I suspect style and voice vary quite a bit from book to book.

By: John Brown - the author’s official site » Blog Archive » Is trying to improve your style a bad thing?

Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:42:54 +0000

[...] Another great podcast by the Writing Excuses team, this time on style and voice: http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/10/06/writing-excuses-episode-35-voice-tone-and-style/ [...]

By: Raethe

Raethe — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:02:24 +0000

Honestly? I ignore almost everything my high school English teachers ever told me. And it consistently amazes me how many people hold to this “don’t say said” thing. We actually had a discussion about it in a creative writing workshop last night.

Dan, you’re going to have a bunch of people mimicking your vampire bunny book for this writing prompt. Howard, I’m not even going to TRY to mimic you… Stick figures okay? They’re an art, really. One can make them astoundingly expressive, provided one is so inclined.

By: S.M.

S.M. — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:37:42 +0000

agreed agreed. My english teacher used to have this list of “banned” words. Not profanity but just simple words. Some stuff was good to have up there (like VERY) but I do think SAID and ASKED made the list.

By: WEKM

WEKM — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:03:42 +0000

As well, I have fretted over “said” since my high school English classes. That tip alone is worth the price of admission.

By: Dan Wells

Dan Wells — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 16:53:15 +0000

An amusing analogue to phrases like “very unique” are words like “prestigious.” It’s usually best to avoid phrases like “prestigious institution,” because if the institution is truly prestigious you don’t have to actually SAY that it’s prestigious, because everyone will already know.

By: Jake

Jake — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 15:49:31 +0000

My journalism ethics (I know oxymoron right?) professor actually gave some really good advise about this too.
In stories adverbs and passive sentences should be avoided when possible. Saying something is “very unique” is redundant and actually weakens the description.

One of the first things he pointed out was the way Ian Flemming wrote several of the Bond books. He used simple tense verbs in active-voice so often that it’s hard to find anything else, but the result was strong. I doubt there are more than two or three people in the Northern Hemisphere who haven’t of James Bond.

By: Jana

Jana — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:17:59 +0000

Another good tool is wordle. You can copy and paste as much of a scene as you want to into their cloud creator and it will create a word cloud with the most used words being the biggest. If the biggest things are character names and such you’re doing fine, if it’s an adjective or joining word you may want to go back through your manuscript and start pruning.

By: Karl

Karl — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 05:43:05 +0000

Can you believe I actually had to wait two whole days to comment on this episode? I managed to hear it two days past through my necklace steeped in ancient power!

As with any rule, beware of the words ‘never’ or ‘always.’ I think if ‘he shouted’ is right for the scene, then use it. Don’t always use it, but also don’t coompletely avoid it.

Tone in literature is not much different than how you can view a movie and tell it is by Steven Spielberg or Terry Gilliam or Guy Ritchie. All can make funny, adventurous films, but you can’t say they make films the same way.!

By: Guerry

Guerry — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 03:39:44 +0000

Great podcast guys!

Jim Van Pelt wrote a post that this cast reminded me about. It deals with an exercise that helps identify writing rhythms.

http://jimvanpelt.livejournal.com/158118.html

@M: Lots of folks have received the bad advice the guys addressed about “said” and “asked.” The rule should be, as they state, to use “said” and “asked.” Screamed, shouted, groaned, whispered, etc. become crutches. The reader should be able to infer the shout either by the words chosen, their context, or the actions of the character when saying them.

By: Bitter

Bitter — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 23:23:21 +0000

You guys make me laugh.

Please let us know how many submissions you get. lol

-Meliss

oh, and thanks!

By: M

Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:29:32 +0000

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! As a new writer I have been going out of my way to avoid the word “said”. Thanks to your genius advice, I can now use it without shame (where appropriate) and shift my worrying onto something more important. Love these podcasts. I look forward to them every week. Keep up the great work.

By: Peter

Peter — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 20:09:05 +0000

if howard reenacted the confession of love scene from the second star wars in Schlock Mercenary I’m pretty sure I would die laughing. Just thinking about is making me crack up.

By: Laura C

Laura C — Mon, 06 Oct 2008 19:04:33 +0000

Adapting voice, tone, and style is actually what us translators get to do every day! And man, practice is the only thing that works. Also, lots of floundering.