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	<title>Comments on: Writing Excuses Episode 9: Sci-Fi Sub-Genre</title>
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	<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/</link>
	<description>Fifteen minutes long, because you&#039;re in a hurry, and we&#039;re not that smart.</description>
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		<title>By: Four Seasons Aviara</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-42255</link>
		<dc:creator>Four Seasons Aviara</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2011 17:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-42255</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Four Seasons...&lt;/strong&gt;

[...]Writing Excuses Episode 9: Sci-Fi Sub-Genre &#187; Writing Excuses[...]...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Four Seasons&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>[...]Writing Excuses Episode 9: Sci-Fi Sub-Genre &raquo; Writing Excuses[...]&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Perception, Sci-Fi And The Power of Power Forwards &#171; socrates was offside</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-41273</link>
		<dc:creator>Perception, Sci-Fi And The Power of Power Forwards &#171; socrates was offside</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jun 2011 08:48:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-41273</guid>
		<description>[...] first thought that came to mind was of a &#8220;Writing Excuses&#8221; podcast that I had listened to today. In it, the podcasters (is that proper?) delved into the many [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] first thought that came to mind was of a &#8220;Writing Excuses&#8221; podcast that I had listened to today. In it, the podcasters (is that proper?) delved into the many [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-36652</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 22:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-36652</guid>
		<description>Sorry, also forgot to mention. If you did this already, just tell me so. this is as far as I have gotten, having just been introduced to W.E. and I started from the beginning. My brother, who has interviewed at least Dan and Brandon (Bryce Dayton, from the Intelli-Gent reviews) was the one who showed it to me. I have long been a fan of fantasy (not so much sci-fi, although I do love cyberpunk) but I have also been interested in writing, and I&#039;m hoping by listening to you all, I can get some help without having to pay for classes and such, cause I&#039;m broke. Anyway, thanks for your time again! Great stuff, I feel that it has helped me understand the basics of what writing a story is all about!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, also forgot to mention. If you did this already, just tell me so. this is as far as I have gotten, having just been introduced to W.E. and I started from the beginning. My brother, who has interviewed at least Dan and Brandon (Bryce Dayton, from the Intelli-Gent reviews) was the one who showed it to me. I have long been a fan of fantasy (not so much sci-fi, although I do love cyberpunk) but I have also been interested in writing, and I&#8217;m hoping by listening to you all, I can get some help without having to pay for classes and such, cause I&#8217;m broke. Anyway, thanks for your time again! Great stuff, I feel that it has helped me understand the basics of what writing a story is all about!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Darren</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-36651</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Oct 2009 21:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-36651</guid>
		<description>Would you, if you have time, also go over the sub-genres you did not cover? I am especially interested in Dystopian and Steam-Punk. Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you, if you have time, also go over the sub-genres you did not cover? I am especially interested in Dystopian and Steam-Punk. Thanks!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Roland</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-859</link>
		<dc:creator>Roland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 06:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-859</guid>
		<description>I have never understood most advertising in general, but this particular gambit seems especially awkward.  Do they seriously expect people to go &quot;Oh, my favorite podcast was interrupted by a mention of a book, guess I&#039;ll go buy it now?&quot;  Does anybody buy a book because an internet celebrity was paid to mention its name?  Do human beings react that way in the wild?

I mean, you&#039;re not even endorsing it, you&#039;re just stating that the book exists. Why interrupt your train of thought and waste 30 seconds of the podcast to simply mention that a product exists? It serves no one and accomplishes nothing. 

I sure hope you&#039;re making a mint off of this. The only thing that would suck worse than a pointless out-of-place advertisement in what was formerly a sincere and informal discussion of the art and science of fiction, would be to discover that they&#039;re not even making it worth your while. 

So yeah, I hope you&#039;re all talking into solid gold diamond-encrusted microphones in the next podcast.  Or, conversely, I hope that our locust-like internet browsing habits were eating you alive with bandwidth expenses until you this advertising deal came along to help stop the hemorrhaging.  

I guess what I&#039;m saying is, I sure hope it was worth it.  

The ad did nothing for me.  Hopefully it did something for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never understood most advertising in general, but this particular gambit seems especially awkward.  Do they seriously expect people to go &#8220;Oh, my favorite podcast was interrupted by a mention of a book, guess I&#8217;ll go buy it now?&#8221;  Does anybody buy a book because an internet celebrity was paid to mention its name?  Do human beings react that way in the wild?</p>
<p>I mean, you&#8217;re not even endorsing it, you&#8217;re just stating that the book exists. Why interrupt your train of thought and waste 30 seconds of the podcast to simply mention that a product exists? It serves no one and accomplishes nothing. </p>
<p>I sure hope you&#8217;re making a mint off of this. The only thing that would suck worse than a pointless out-of-place advertisement in what was formerly a sincere and informal discussion of the art and science of fiction, would be to discover that they&#8217;re not even making it worth your while. </p>
<p>So yeah, I hope you&#8217;re all talking into solid gold diamond-encrusted microphones in the next podcast.  Or, conversely, I hope that our locust-like internet browsing habits were eating you alive with bandwidth expenses until you this advertising deal came along to help stop the hemorrhaging.  </p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is, I sure hope it was worth it.  </p>
<p>The ad did nothing for me.  Hopefully it did something for you.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Joseph4th</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-855</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph4th</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Apr 2008 05:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-855</guid>
		<description>Just a quick note to let you guys know I&#039;ll be writing a letter to Tor to let them know what a great idea it was for them to sponsor your podcast.  I left you an iTunes review a few weeks ago as well. Love the podcast, want more.

-Joseph-</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a quick note to let you guys know I&#8217;ll be writing a letter to Tor to let them know what a great idea it was for them to sponsor your podcast.  I left you an iTunes review a few weeks ago as well. Love the podcast, want more.</p>
<p>-Joseph-</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Moritz</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-815</link>
		<dc:creator>Moritz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 12:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-815</guid>
		<description>This was the first writing excuses episode I came across (sorry, I don&#039;t remember who pointed it out to me) and I&#039;ve subscribed to it since. I particulary like the mix of information and the relaxed tone and fun in each recording. I am not worried about that Tor advert as long as it stays in that short format.

Regarding this particular episode - it came to me as a blessing, cause right now I am exploring a lot of new books and realized that the little SciFi I read would probably be Space Opera. This podcast made it clear for me why I like this subgenre and why I stay away from others (as much as niches are always oversimplifications).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was the first writing excuses episode I came across (sorry, I don&#8217;t remember who pointed it out to me) and I&#8217;ve subscribed to it since. I particulary like the mix of information and the relaxed tone and fun in each recording. I am not worried about that Tor advert as long as it stays in that short format.</p>
<p>Regarding this particular episode &#8211; it came to me as a blessing, cause right now I am exploring a lot of new books and realized that the little SciFi I read would probably be Space Opera. This podcast made it clear for me why I like this subgenre and why I stay away from others (as much as niches are always oversimplifications).</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Howard Tayler</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-810</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Tayler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Apr 2008 00:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-810</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;@Gorbash&lt;/b&gt;: Sorry, man. I&#039;m not usually a lazy reader, but you posted too much text. TOO MUCH. You probably said something interesting, but I missed it. Brevity is the soul of wit, my friend. BREVITY.

If you want to upload 1000-word essays (you only posted 823 words, but who besides me is counting?) it&#039;s a good idea to break your paragraphs up. 

This, by the way, is good advice for writers in any genre. Too many unbroken walls of non-indented text can and will intimidate readers, and your content will go unread.

&lt;b&gt;@Thanos&lt;/b&gt;: Verne&#039;s work &quot;predicted&quot; submarines and space travel, but more importantly it foreshadowed the entire genre in which we currently write. You can call it Space Opera, Hard SF, and even Fantasy. Those elements are all there, and he predates the rise of the genre by an entire generation, so any categorization you apply is wholly artificial. Verne certainly wasn&#039;t thinking of genres in that way when he wrote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>@Gorbash</b>: Sorry, man. I&#8217;m not usually a lazy reader, but you posted too much text. TOO MUCH. You probably said something interesting, but I missed it. Brevity is the soul of wit, my friend. BREVITY.</p>
<p>If you want to upload 1000-word essays (you only posted 823 words, but who besides me is counting?) it&#8217;s a good idea to break your paragraphs up. </p>
<p>This, by the way, is good advice for writers in any genre. Too many unbroken walls of non-indented text can and will intimidate readers, and your content will go unread.</p>
<p><b>@Thanos</b>: Verne&#8217;s work &#8220;predicted&#8221; submarines and space travel, but more importantly it foreshadowed the entire genre in which we currently write. You can call it Space Opera, Hard SF, and even Fantasy. Those elements are all there, and he predates the rise of the genre by an entire generation, so any categorization you apply is wholly artificial. Verne certainly wasn&#8217;t thinking of genres in that way when he wrote.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Thanos M</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-787</link>
		<dc:creator>Thanos M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 15:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-787</guid>
		<description>Would you guys think that  Jules Vern was a Space-Opera verging to Hard SF of his time?
 He actually wrote about alot of things we take today for granted like submarines and space travel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you guys think that  Jules Vern was a Space-Opera verging to Hard SF of his time?<br />
 He actually wrote about alot of things we take today for granted like submarines and space travel.</p>
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		<title>By: Gorbash Kazdar</title>
		<link>http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/comment-page-1/#comment-730</link>
		<dc:creator>Gorbash Kazdar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 21:20:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.writingexcuses.com/2008/04/06/writing-excuses-episode-9-sci-fi-sub-genre/#comment-730</guid>
		<description>First off, I want to say I quite enjoyed this episode.  I think the key point of identifying genre as a writer is to make sure one is aware of the clichés and standards of it.  One wants to know when one is walking across ground already well trod, and when one is doing something unexpected.  There&#039;s nothing wrong with either, but if something has been done over and over in a genre, one generally has to do it better in order for readers to enjoy it.

I wanted to respond to a couple of comments here.  Asmund mentions silly technology in regards as things not to do, particularly referencing the attack droids from Revenge of the Sith and the exo-skeleton mecha from The Matrix: Revolutions.  The thought that occurs to me is that there&#039;s a definite sliding scale when it comes to weird or inefficient technology depending on sub-genre.  Harder scifi sub-genres are obviously going to have a low tolerance for such features, but in the case of space opera, it actually can serve as a major stylistic feature.  Star Wars of course has lightsabers, which are very weird/inefficient technology; it&#039;s not only acceptable but is embraced because of the sub-genre.  In space opera, technology can be forgiven for being kind of absurd as long as it adds an enjoyable stylistic element - basically, as long as it&#039;s cool and doesn&#039;t break suspension of disbelief too badly.  The droids in Revenge of the Sith did not bother me because they created an interesting dilemma and fit the style of the setting.  Sure, an actual warhead would be more realistic and effective, but the droids added an element of suspense and felt more dangerous.  Essentially, space opera (and other soft genres) can - and probably should be encouraged - to ignore realism in favor of the dramatic.  Of course, a writer has to be careful not to go too far.  The exo-skeletons from The Matrix provide a great example of this.  Walking tanks are a bit of a ridiculous idea in the first place, but the open cockpit, as Asmund mentions, puts them way over the top - a viewer simply cannot take them seriously, cannot get over the glaringly obvious flaw.  Simply enclosing the operator in some sort of cockpit would have resolved this - the viewers are willing to accept the silliness of a mecha if the writer (or in this case film-makes) make at least a nod towards realistic concerns.  Different readers will have different tastes and how far they&#039;re willing to stretch their sense of disbelief varies, but if the writer at least addresses the readily obvious problems in some way and makes it dramatically or stylistically interesting, the readers will often go along for the ride.  (And please excuse me, but as a card carrying geek I must take this moment to be pedantic lest I am stripped of my membership - Obi-wan&#039;s starfighter in Revenge of the Sith is actually a ETA-2 Actis Interceptor ;-) ).

In reference to cyberpunk, Jon W. suggests it should be a sub-genre of dystopian works.  I think there&#039;s good reason to feel this way, but I disagree for a few reasons.  Primarily, in dystopian works the entire population - even the supposed elite - live in oppressive  and restricted circumstances.  Even the supposed elite are better off only in comparison to the general populace, and rarely live in anything that could be likened to opulence.  In 1984, for example, the Party leadership have but a few privileges - they can turn off their CCTVs, have slightly better living quarters, personal vehicles, and a few other relatively minor allowances.  However, they are if anything watched even more closely and face even worse repercussions should they break their society&#039;s rules.  In cyberpunk, however, the world is dystopian primarily from the viewpoints of the standard protagonists.  These characters are on the outside of the system, either by circumstance or choice, and the system by nature tends to grind down and oppress outsiders.  However, they conversely have a great deal more individual freedom - they may be in constant danger and have no support net besides what they create themselves, but they are also not beholden to the powers that control a cyberpunk world.  Those at the top of these powers, on the other hand, enjoy virtually limitless wealth and privilege, and can get away with almost anything they want.  It&#039;s really only the people in the middle - part of the system, but not controlling it - that face what would be considered the typical dystopian oppression.  In fact, this aspect can vary greatly depending on which corporation or government or whatever a person is part of.  Some cyberpunk works even call this version of circumstances into question - are the people in charge really that bad, and are regular people that sheep like, or are the protagonists just violent underworld extremists, paranoids, and criminals?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off, I want to say I quite enjoyed this episode.  I think the key point of identifying genre as a writer is to make sure one is aware of the clichés and standards of it.  One wants to know when one is walking across ground already well trod, and when one is doing something unexpected.  There&#8217;s nothing wrong with either, but if something has been done over and over in a genre, one generally has to do it better in order for readers to enjoy it.</p>
<p>I wanted to respond to a couple of comments here.  Asmund mentions silly technology in regards as things not to do, particularly referencing the attack droids from Revenge of the Sith and the exo-skeleton mecha from The Matrix: Revolutions.  The thought that occurs to me is that there&#8217;s a definite sliding scale when it comes to weird or inefficient technology depending on sub-genre.  Harder scifi sub-genres are obviously going to have a low tolerance for such features, but in the case of space opera, it actually can serve as a major stylistic feature.  Star Wars of course has lightsabers, which are very weird/inefficient technology; it&#8217;s not only acceptable but is embraced because of the sub-genre.  In space opera, technology can be forgiven for being kind of absurd as long as it adds an enjoyable stylistic element &#8211; basically, as long as it&#8217;s cool and doesn&#8217;t break suspension of disbelief too badly.  The droids in Revenge of the Sith did not bother me because they created an interesting dilemma and fit the style of the setting.  Sure, an actual warhead would be more realistic and effective, but the droids added an element of suspense and felt more dangerous.  Essentially, space opera (and other soft genres) can &#8211; and probably should be encouraged &#8211; to ignore realism in favor of the dramatic.  Of course, a writer has to be careful not to go too far.  The exo-skeletons from The Matrix provide a great example of this.  Walking tanks are a bit of a ridiculous idea in the first place, but the open cockpit, as Asmund mentions, puts them way over the top &#8211; a viewer simply cannot take them seriously, cannot get over the glaringly obvious flaw.  Simply enclosing the operator in some sort of cockpit would have resolved this &#8211; the viewers are willing to accept the silliness of a mecha if the writer (or in this case film-makes) make at least a nod towards realistic concerns.  Different readers will have different tastes and how far they&#8217;re willing to stretch their sense of disbelief varies, but if the writer at least addresses the readily obvious problems in some way and makes it dramatically or stylistically interesting, the readers will often go along for the ride.  (And please excuse me, but as a card carrying geek I must take this moment to be pedantic lest I am stripped of my membership &#8211; Obi-wan&#8217;s starfighter in Revenge of the Sith is actually a ETA-2 Actis Interceptor <img src='http://www.writingexcuses.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ).</p>
<p>In reference to cyberpunk, Jon W. suggests it should be a sub-genre of dystopian works.  I think there&#8217;s good reason to feel this way, but I disagree for a few reasons.  Primarily, in dystopian works the entire population &#8211; even the supposed elite &#8211; live in oppressive  and restricted circumstances.  Even the supposed elite are better off only in comparison to the general populace, and rarely live in anything that could be likened to opulence.  In 1984, for example, the Party leadership have but a few privileges &#8211; they can turn off their CCTVs, have slightly better living quarters, personal vehicles, and a few other relatively minor allowances.  However, they are if anything watched even more closely and face even worse repercussions should they break their society&#8217;s rules.  In cyberpunk, however, the world is dystopian primarily from the viewpoints of the standard protagonists.  These characters are on the outside of the system, either by circumstance or choice, and the system by nature tends to grind down and oppress outsiders.  However, they conversely have a great deal more individual freedom &#8211; they may be in constant danger and have no support net besides what they create themselves, but they are also not beholden to the powers that control a cyberpunk world.  Those at the top of these powers, on the other hand, enjoy virtually limitless wealth and privilege, and can get away with almost anything they want.  It&#8217;s really only the people in the middle &#8211; part of the system, but not controlling it &#8211; that face what would be considered the typical dystopian oppression.  In fact, this aspect can vary greatly depending on which corporation or government or whatever a person is part of.  Some cyberpunk works even call this version of circumstances into question &#8211; are the people in charge really that bad, and are regular people that sheep like, or are the protagonists just violent underworld extremists, paranoids, and criminals?</p>
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